Bondage of Corruption Pt. 1: Culture

“Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.” Romans 8:21

The Holy Bible declares that corruption leads to bondage, while true liberty is only available to those who are freed from corruption by being counted amongst the children of God. In America, many today confuse liberty with license–that is, license in a sense of the freedom to behave as one wishes, especially in a way that results in excessive or unacceptable behavior. This behavior views corruption as freedom rather than bondage.

Nowhere is this spirit more easily observable than in our entertainment and entertainers–our storytellers, our musicians, our artists. This is made possible by a diversion away from the essence of things–the essence of what is good and what is intrinsically bad–and a preference for promoting the concept of the subjective over the reality of the objective.

It is manifestly unpleasant to hear fingernails dragged across a chalkboard. It becomes no less hideous when you make a video of this activity and play it on an endless loop, emblazoned on a hundred connected TV monitors in a museum, calling it an art installation. No matter how artfully done, it remains unpleasant.

It has been construed that pushing the boundaries of propriety–indeed, challenging the very notions of propriety, good taste, manners and common decency–somehow leads to better more legitimate art.
In spite of the general populous finding much of this sort of “art” repugnant, it is still somehow important to keep it in the public eye. Indeed, it is so important that some of the most repugnant art needs to be subsidized with public funding, as precious few in the private sector seem willing to patronize or own a portrait of the Virgin Mary smeared with fecal matter.

In essence, fecal matter is still fecal matter. It stinks. Objectively, that is. Subjectively, it is art, regardless of it being unpleasant in essence, poor in taste and potentially a health hazard if you were inclined to hang it in your home or place of business.

I used to own, with a couple of partners, a chain of three comic book stores in the 80’s and 90’s. Comic books have always been a big part of my life since I was seven years old, when my dad bought me my first comic, Captain America #117.

Recently, Spiderman, in an effort to keep his incredibly old Aunt May from dying, sold his soul to the Marvel Comics’ version of the devil. A provision in this deal, beyond the sacrifice of Peter Parker’s soul was that his marriage to Mary Jane would be wiped out of reality. So to save his aunt, he bargained his immortal soul and his marriage to the devil.

This is Spiderman, a character who in essence was one of the most incorruptible. What message does this send to the kids reading this story? It certainly devalues the idea of the immortal human soul. Does this sort of Faustian story make Spiderman better than when he was stopping Mysterio or the Green Goblin from robbing banks?

The comics I loved while growing up featured heroes who had a letter on their chest, a cape, and a magic word, who fought bad guys because they were bad and they needed their butts kicked. Now, you are hard pressed to tell the heroes from the villains–the morality is so subjective and ambivalent.
Some of the superhero movies so popular today I have enjoyed, but none of them have gotten the characters right. None of them! Hollywood is about to release a film based on the Thor comic book character. It looks like a fun film, but it is not The Mighty Thor of the comic. He may superficially look a bit like Thor but he is not Thor.

In the comics, Thor was banished from Asgard, the home of the Norse gods, because he was arrogant, selfish and without a speck of humility. To teach him the humility necessary to make Thor the hero he would become, his father, Odin, placed him in the body of a scrawny, physically lame medical doctor named Donald Blake.

As a crippled doctor, he learned the value of serving others and gained an appreciation for his prowess and the responsibilities that prowess granted him when acting as Thor. The Don Blake persona humbled him and made Thor a hero. In the film, he is just sent to earth and he is still a big strapping good looking blond guy capable of beating up a bunch of highly trained operatives. He just doesn’t have the super powers. A guy like that would still have a pretty good time here on earth. And a pretty hard time learning true humility.

Humility is no longer a virtue worth translating in a comic’s storyline today, or in film. At least, not through serving others as Don Blake did.

I watched a sci-fi film, “Splice” this week that depicts a creature made by a scientist couple, culled from the DNA of several different creatures. Upon reaching maturity, the creature has graphic sexual relations with the male scientist, and then transforms into a male creature and graphically rapes the female scientist leaving her pregnant. Thats a long way from “This Island Earth” which I loved growing up. I wouldn’t even let my son see “Splice”.

I stayed home with a cold yesterday and watched daytime TV. I saw classic episodes of “Emergency”, “I Spy”, “Kojak”, and “Quincy”–all great, all compelling episodic TV. In prime time, I watched Law and Order SVU, not a show I normally watch but it is rerun time.

They ran two episodes back to back. Both dealt with rape, and both found it necessary to have the rape victims relate their stories in uncomfortably graphic detail–detail that would not have been allowed at the time the shows I watched earlier in the day were produced.

The graphic detail didn’t make the shows more compelling than the earlier shows. It just made them more...disquieting, gratuitously so. Disturbing to a point where I decided to scratch “Law and Order SVU”  off my list of shows to watch. Rape is never a pleasant subject, but the graphic nature of the testimony stuck with me far longer than the satisfaction derived from seeing the perpetrators face their just desserts.

The graphic testimony didn’t make the show better, just more salacious–especially in the first show, where they kept showing the rapist’s face as the victim told her story and he was obviously deriving pleasure from the telling.

The governor is deactivated in music, film, Television. A culture gets the art it deserves by virtue of what it allows. I don’t mean in the sense of governmental regulation, but by what the citizenry itself will accept, promote and support.

“Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.” – Alexis de Tocqueville

Bread and circuses! As corruption rises in our culture our liberty erodes, spiritually and physically. We are being plied with more and more debauchery as is our nature to desire. Culturally, God and objective morality based on the adherence to the dictates of God are being supplanted by subjective, let-it-all-hang-out licentiousness.

At some point we need to grab a hold of the moral reins and give a collective “Whoa there!” As we become looser in our morality, more and more distracted by the bread and circuses, more and more restraints on our liberty are being hammered into place by those forwarding agendas like Cap and Trade. Most Americans didn’t even notice the FCC takeover of the internet on a three Democrats to two Republicans vote a few days ago.

Who are these people and who put them in the position to make such a decision?
At some point, we have to stop patronizing this crap, Stop going to the movies, turn the TVs off, stop downloading the music. All of it. If these industries see that we mean business by not buying anything until they eliminate the crap, the crap will continue to eat away at us and our children. It starts with me and you!

Digital Publius

The Fink Who Sat By The Door

A bit past a year ago, the sycophantic/leftist media celebrated the ill-conceived bestowing of the hitherto prestigious Nobel Peace Prize to President Barack Obama. The fledgling statesman winning the award seemed odd to everyone, save the most obsequious lickspittles chanting, “Yes we can” and “Hope” and “Change”!

It was plain to the sober minded, that the Nobel body acted with a bona fide stupidity, born of fanciful notions of a transformative new diplomatic era springing forth from Barack Obama’s bellybutton fully mature! All the naughty people and all our enemies awestruck by his native mightiness seeing the error of their ways stumbling over each other to join hands and summit, quaffing the wares of the trendiest micro brewery.

It was repeated ad nauseam by leftist punditry that Barack Obama  would recover the good will America enjoyed internationally that they felt the Bush administration squandered. How the left could possibly divine the Junior Senator from Illinois possessed such power, without the evidence of past diplomatic experience, is beyond my comprehension.

It certainly seems that to this point, the only people susceptible to Obama’s siren powers are left wing ideologues! The rest of the world seems indifferent. It appears that all of those outside of the U.S. who were besotted with the idea of a less “cowboy” like approach to diplomacy don’t have the influence in their respective nations to get their own leaders to play ball.

Well, the left is right! This is a new era of American diplomacy, one where for the first time, America operates from a position of weakness. We read in Der Spiegel:

"Never before in history has a superpower lost control of such vast amounts of such sensitive information -- data that can help paint a picture of the foundation upon which US foreign policy is built. Never before has the trust America's partners have in the country been as badly shaken. Now, their own personal views and policy recommendations have been made public -- as have America's true views of them."

I could never have fathomed something like this year’s WikiLeaks disclosures.  You would think the U.S. State department could have put the kibosh on this sort of thing back in March when the first group of truly damaging leaks was released. Hillary Clinton, Obama’s greatest rival for the Democratic nomination in 2008, is now running the State Department. Beginning with the Russian reset button debacle Mrs. Clinton has proven to be incompetent far beyond my expectations. If you remember - diplomacy was supposed to be Hillary’s strong suit, at least that was what she said.

Der Spiegel, the Guardian UK, and our home grown fifth column rag, The New York Times are all indicative of leftist ideology run amuck. The WikiLeaks disclosures would never have seen the light of day in a more patriotic era - at least not without someone swinging in the aftermath! By my reckoning, The Times actions constitute nothing less than treason.

As a nation America has had nationalism driven out of us--there are too many people now raised  with no sense of pride in what America has been to the world and what it means to be an American. The left now controls our children’s education and the modern media have reduced America’s role in world history to that of a recalcitrant bully.

There are more people now calling themselves Americans that have utter disdain for their own nation, than at any point in our history, this did not happen by accident. We have placed more emphasis on feelings than reason and reality. You have people teaching their children it is more important to follow their hearts than their brains, when the Creator of those children says:

“The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?” Jeremiah 17:9

Wikileaks founder Julian Assange and the above mentioned news entities are thinking with their hearts without regard for the very real people who will be effected by their wrongheaded actions. They follow a misguided dictum to an extreme like children incapable of seeing beyond the most basic ideas.

This is the same sort of heart-based decision-making that leads to nude scanning and the groping of airline travelers in our airports. Instead of using common sense to determine which people it would be wise to scrutinize more vigorously the TSA would rather subject my Aunt Ruth and Uncle Bill (if you could get them on a plane) to a series of indignities in the name of not offending Syrian nationals.

The TSA spends time looking for bombs so they check everyone, even 10-year-old Timmy from Goose Lake, Iowa. Israel, surrounded by enemy states and the constant threat of terrorism, utilize their brains and are more interested in finding terrorists. Whether flying in or out of Israel, it will be an Israeli checking you out and they are looking at race, ethnicity, religion, dress and behavior. The Israeli’s have zero incidents and Aunt Ruth and Uncle Bill do not have to worry about having their bits and pieces handled.

Do you feel the love in this new era yet? Are we safer? Cowboy diplomacy is bad, yet, in less than two years of the dawning of the new diplomatic epoch, to appease Moscow, the Obama administration gave Poland and the rest of Eastern Europe the high hat by reneging on the missile defense shield treaty promised by the previous administration.

China is regulating our actions in the Yellow Sea as the Calender gets rolled back to 1950 in Korea. Israel, initially overwhelmingly supportive of the Obama Presidency now looks at the U.S. like something less than an honest broker as the administration pushes for more and more one sided compromises with the Palestinian Authority.

With the advent of the WikiLeaks disclosures the administration proved powerless to prevent despite hollow threats from our State Department, Pakistan is now more reticent. Germany, Kenya, Italy, Turkey, Saudi Arabia all offended. Hillary Clinton is revealed to have ordered all manner of spying on even some of our staunchest allies, not a bad thing in and of itself, but the world is now reading our diplomatic memos so now they know that we know that they know.

All this as violence is escalating in Afghanistan, Cindy Sheehan and her Code Pink cohorts nowhere in sight. Is Cindy camping outside Obama’s Illinois residence as she used to do at Bush’s Crawford ranch? If she is, the cameras aren’t there to record it like they were on a regular basis during W’s time in office. I guess covering Cindy's Code Pink shenanigans was just politics.

We are creating our own insurgency right in our schools and on our television sets and movie screens. Our children are being fed a steady diet of misinformation and revisionism and taught to value feelings over thinking.  Those are not the attitudes that made America the strongest most giving and compassionate nation in the history of the world.

The left, so anti the things that make us great, faith in God, family, industry,  can’t fathom that it is the old ways that keep drawing people, filled with real “hope,” to our shores not idealistic views of an America that never existed and hopefully never will. Meanwhile, the progressives squat in the shadows at the gate, opening our doors a little wider to our enemies everyday.

Digital Publius

Branded (Election Afterthoughts)

“Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.” ~ Albert Einstein

Few adages are as readily available to the American consciousness as the one quoted above. Yet, there are even fewer more frequently forgotten. Nowhere is the tacit rejection of Einstein’s truism more painfully apparent than in America’s urban areas.

Urban areas mired in corruption and collapsing school systems, decaying infrastructures providing fewer and fewer services to a citizenry still expected to pay taxes, inner city denizens clinging maniacally to those failed policies and the leaders who implement them — this particular election cycle provided a rather unique glimpse at the near total perfection of liberal Democrats’ hold on Black voters’ thinking and political actions in the inner cities across the nation. 

What the 2010 midterm elections showed is the “D” in front of a candidate’s name is even more powerful in urban Black consciousness than common sense, reason and even skin color. Despite the fact many of these areas have not elected a conservative official in decades, they seem incapable of surmising it may be a good idea to try something different.

“The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits.” ~ Albert Einstein

The American independent voters (that block of people often responsible for a swing one way or another politically) decided this time the “Change” they voted for in 2008 was far beyond what they expected. So, they swung back the other way this election in even greater numbers than 2008.

Independents are by nature reactionary, a characteristic I find difficult to regard highly myself, yet one I find is at least, to a degree, understandable. This makes the slavish devotion to the Democrat party exhibited by my people more troubling. Why do we continue to hold to a party whose precepts have decimated our communities?

In the races where you had a Black Republican as an alternative to a Black Democrat, or even a Black Republican against a White Democrat, the urban areas still opted for the Democrat. This was the case in Jesse Jackson, Jr.’s race against Republican Isaac Hayes in Illinois as well as the race of California Democrat Laura Richardson, who faced Popular Republican pundit Star Parker. Ms. Parker’s story is truly an inspiration for those seeking to better their situation in life and exactly the image most needed in Compton.

Corruption charges against incumbent politicians seem not to matter, either. Eternal Congressman Charlie Rangel had no trouble brushing aside Michael Faulkner.

Tennessee’s 9th Congressional district Black Republican candidate, successful business woman Charlotte Bergmann, received an anemic 25% of the vote in her race against incumbent White Democrat opponent Steve Cohen, despite a 60% Black population in the district. In fact, it is the states only predominately Black district. It’s not a black thing, it’s a “D” thing.

“We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them.” ~ Albert Einstein

To counter Einstein’s faithful adage defining insanity, we find this bromide:

“It doesn’t matter what party is in power, nothing ever changes, all politicians are alike.”

To all those Black Democrats languishing in cities like Detroit, Baltimore and Memphis who employ this banal and wholly unoriginal bit of fluff, I ask; how would you know?

During the slave trade, it was not uncommon for a master to brand his slaves with a hot iron. This served as a constant reminder to the slave he was not his own. This brand ran far deeper than the raised scar it produced. It meant you knew to whom you belonged and you mustn’t entertain any ideas of your station changing.

The modern slave master’s brand is unseen but no less effective. The Democrats say you’ll be free, but not yet. You’ll get your freedom, but it will be a freedom defined by “us”. This is why the Democrats are always reminding you everyone else is racist. They reinforce daily you cannot succeed without them being there to pave the way for you.

In the past, the slave masters employed overseers to make sure the slaves stayed in their places and performed as they were expected. These overseers were charged with disciplining the slaves as well. Frequently, the most zealous of these overseers were themselves slaves — all too willing to keep the order in the slave quarters if it ensured a few extra creature comforts for themselves.

In many cases, these Black overseers reacted more vehemently to Black rebellion than any White overseer. We see this played out today as Black folks become unhinged when someone has the temerity to stray from the Democratic plantation, spewing the very invective they accuse the right of espousing. This is trained behavior; some of the most effective training takes place when the subject is unaware they are being trained.

“If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.”  ~ Albert Einstein

Of course, as the left explains, their crushing defeat at the polls is due to the “inability” of the hoi poloi to “grasp” the beneficence they have bestowed upon us. The President just “failed to communicate” how successful he and his sycophants have been. It is indeed difficult to explain why ideas that have never worked are still completely ineffectual. “Hope” indeed springs eternal!

At some point, the Black community has to realize it has been flimflammed, or at the very least come to a point were they are willing to consider an alternative to failure. This is what wise, thinking people do in order to extricate themselves from circumstances they are dissatisfied with — unless of course they fail to recognize they are dissatisfied. Then they are simply fools!

Chicago serves as a fairly good example of what I am talking about. President Obama’s former senate seat was lost to a Republican as the President’s former constituents opted for a change of guard. Interestingly, Roland Burris, the only serving Black senator, appointed to replace President Obama, was strongly advised not to seek re-election.

Burris is just one of a string of Black elected officials encouraged to step aside by the President and the Democrat machine — a list that included most notably New York Governor David Paterson and Kendrick Meek of Florida. Meek won the Democratic nomination for the senate fair and square, but was asked to step aside for the White Charlie Crist.

Crist, a former Republican running as an independent, pledged to caucus with the Democrats, which made for a more acceptable choice for the Democrat party than the Black Democrat the people of Florida chose. Meek earned 20% of the votes Tuesday While the usurper Crist garnered 30%. This opened the Door for Republican Marco Rubio to win the election with 49% of the vote.

How well would Meek have done if the Democrat party-backed Crist had not taken 30% of the vote away from him? It seems painfully apparent, at least in the cases of Burris and Meek, the left has an aversion to black senators. You are fine with the Democrat party as long as you are the kind they want — the kind that won’t try to escape the plantation and start believing in their ability to overcome by their own means.

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius — and a lot of courage — to move in the opposite direction." ~ Albert Einstein

The entire constitution of the United States, complete with amendments, fits on a couple of pages in the back of my Webster’s dictionary. The healthcare bill, threatening to burden the nation for generations to come, is thousands of pages long. Does this make sense to you? How long will my people continue to put their faith in government and the Democrat party instead of hard work and God, who was the Founders’ strength?

“For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD; They would none of my counsel, they despised all my reproof. Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.” Proverbs 1:29-31

Digital Publius

Groomed To Fail

For all of you who voted for Barack Obama, you are to blame for the President’s failure. Someone should have risen up and been the adult. Someone should have said “Barack, we appreciate your enthusiasm, but it is not yet your time.”

Alas, this is not what happened and, as is often the case when someone takes on a responsibility they are not yet equipped to handle, others more properly equipped are burdened with sorting out the aftermath.

It is obvious from the President’s campaign rhetoric that the man lacks the wisdom to understand why the majority of the American people, the same people who elected him, are not receptive to his message. He seems genuinely bemused by the backlash he and his party are now facing. Obama doesn’t get that “We the People” understand what he is trying to get across.  However, it’s just not what we want to hear.

Mr. President, we get it! Americans can see that you and your Democratic Congressional cohorts have accomplished a great deal in the first half of your presidency. Congratulations!  However, the nation is saying, “Mr. President, you just haven’t accomplished what you were elected to do.”

On more than one occasion, I’ve stated that the Democrats won the majorities in the upper and lower chambers because of anti-war fatigue. During the political discourse leading up to the 2006 elections there was no talk of an ailing economy. At that time, the nation was enjoying six straight years of uninterrupted economic growth with average unemployment, over those years, at a nostalgic 5.2%.

President Bush spent money like a drunken sailor; it seems Bush approved every debt expanding Ponzi scheme Congress set before him. Yet even President Bush could see the writing on the wall when it came to the Dems favorites Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae. So despite constant warnings that Fannie and Freddie needed reigning in from Bush and the Republicans, the Dems maintained all was well.

Meanwhile, the Iraqi surge worked and suddenly there was nothing but good news on the war front. Positive war news resulted in no war news being reported, as the leftist media could not bring itself to report anything positive. A successful war effort presented a very dismal outlook for the liberals for the 2008 elections with the economy humming and positive war news. What to do, what to do?

Well the answer came with the collapse of Freddie and Fannie and through the magic of special effects. The resulting financial collapse became the Republicans fault and the result of failed economic policies of the president whose policies, up to that point, were stellar.

Bush forwarded a hideous bailout and the perfect storm needed to take the White House left tropical storm status and culminated into a full blown hurricane. Democrats take over everything with the promise of righting the countries financial ship of state.

The people have no jobs, “Rent is too damn high” and businesses are afraid to invest! Hey, remember how Bill and Hillary never could get that health reform thing done? Let’s do it. Hear us world. Nothing can stop us now! What about jobs? Health care man, our wind farms and green economy will put a soy chicken substitute in every pot.

The President was groomed for failure. Obama is a man who admittedly has a natural predilection for the type of economics that have never worked anywhere they have been tried. Obama himself said he is drawn to a Marxist perspective. Barack did not change stripes once elected, oh no, he appointed others who share a socialist worldview into the Cabinet and a cadre of czars.

The people ignored the fact that Obama had zero experience running anything. A two-year senator barely heard of save a lovely speech two years earlier, America ignored Obama’s questionable associations, which surely would have derailed the campaign of a less media besotted candidate. A rag tag list of Pinkos, domestic terrorists, cuckoo clerics and political strongmen all indicating that Barack Obama does indeed represent “change”.

Sociologically speaking, President Obama is the quintessential example of nurture over nature. All of the president’s associations, including his family, were wrong headed. Everything Obama learned was wrong, the poor guy never had a chance! The President and his associates claim to love America, but it is a version of America that exists only in the minds of America’s enemies.

This morning my friend and I were driving through the city of Detroit. Everywhere you looked was decay, lack and hopelessness. He and another friend were involved in buying and rehabilitating homes for rental in Detroit. With the recent housing collapse, they got out of the business. At one point a few years ago, my friend and his associate had some fifty homes and apartment buildings.

My friend told me that most of those homes they reconditioned, homes that had been reclaimed and believe me when I say it these dwellings were beautiful and back on the rolls producing not just a home for a family, but taxes. Almost all of the homes are either destroyed or worse than when first acquired.

Wondering aloud, my friend asked, “Where are these people going? You would think that with the loss of jobs the poorer neighborhoods would be growing, with more folks having to leave more affluent areas for less expensive housing, but that’s not happening.”

And then it hit me! Detroit is Cuba! Right here in the middle of the U.S. of A., Detroit is Cuba! Detroit may be the first city to experience not only white flight, but black flight as well. Detroit has been run under the auspices of socialist ideology by liberals since the election of Mayor Coleman Young.

What happens to socialist nations? People escape them! Most of the people I know, my contemporaries, have left the city for the suburbs. It used to be that Black folks moved to the closer Detroit subs, like Oak Park and Southfield/Lathrup Village. More and more are moving to the suburban hinterlands into places far, far, far from the city.

As we have found in the past, when socialism takes root, those with the means leave first. The poor, trapped without jobs immigrate to where the jobs are. The poorer areas are not growing as more people join the ranks of the poor because even the poor are leaving and going to cities and states where there are jobs that are not run like socialist enclaves.

The poverty-stricken may not understand the socio-political ideology responsible for their circumstances, but they are reacting nonetheless just as we find in the countries that are avowed socialist nations. Tragically, because most of the poor are taught politics and economics from people who think that their socialist ideas are correct; the needy have also been groomed to failure.  When they move to areas that are freer, the poor likely elect officials that have also embraced the ideologies that have ruined the urban areas as they move to the suburbs, eventually bringing them down as well.
This is what happens when you vote for a man because he makes you feel good.

“The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?” Jeremiah 17:9

Things seldom go well when you act from feelings, God warns us about this and gives us a model to follow as Jeremiah 17 continues:

“I the LORD search the heart, [I] try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, [and] according to the fruit of his doings.” v10

God says not only does He search the heart, He tries the reigns, He looks at your mind and examines the fruit you bear.

Should we not do the same, especially when it comes to choosing our leaders? Obama told us all what he was going to do before he took office. What Obama was planning to do is in his books; it’s in his voting record. Barack even made known how he would lead spiritually. This is a man of enormous hubris and he has governed as such. Barack Obama hoping to forward the ideological fantasy of what he believes America should be in his pride has disregarded the will of the people and the spirit of this nation.

Let this be a lesson to us all.

Digital Publius

It's On and Poppin'!

On facebook, I was friended by a fellow named Dr. Muhammad Ali, an Islamic scholar. I am often approached by Muslims because of my Arabic name. Sometimes I am pleasantly surprised to find it is a fellow ex-Muslim reaching out to me, but this was not the case with Dr. Ali.

After checking out his page and seeing articles like "Jesus saved from Accursed Death" and a myriad of treatises focusing on the specious nature of the Trinity from an Islamic perspective. I posted:

"I am glad you befriended me, you have much to learn and a great deal of confusion."

Well you can well imagine the response this got from Dr. Muhammad's devotees.

One fellow also named Muhammad said:

“‎@Hassan,you are right.There is lot of confusion in Jesus mythology.”

I replied:

“The onus of proof lies with the Qur'an and Islam! I have yet to find a single person who could offer a good apologetic from an Islamic perspective. I would challenge Dr. Ali to an internet debate. It could take place on my blog or any blog he chooses.

I will use the Holy Bible, The Qur'an and the Hadith and if you value reason and the truth as you purport, we shall see! If you wish we can begin with an article I wrote called "The Stand". Feel free to comment on the article."

Dr. Muhammad himself answered:

“Thanks Hasan, It will be a pleasure to learn from you about Christianity. I have certain questions, I will ask you to satisfy myself. I may even convert to Christianity if the replies are cogent and satisfy my heart and mind.”

A lovely man to be sure!

I replied:

“Amen”

A fellow named Riaz said:

“@ Hassan Nurullah...Allah be with you!!

Which prompted someone calling themselves “Lovely Gift” to counter:

“@Riaz, no no u r mistaken, Allah b with us and jesus with mr Hassan.”

I chuckled to myself and said Amen again! It is on and poppin’!

I pray that God uses this exchange to call some out of a dangerous belief system that threatens not only the world, but the very souls of those who are trapped in the dreadful embrace of the god of this world who is Islam’s inspiration. In the name above all other names, The Lord Jesus Christ and Him crucified! Amen It Is So!

I then posted the following on Dr. Muhammad’s wall:

“I challenge you and your followers to watch this video in it's entirety! Let the light of truth shine on you my friends that you may live!” Prophecy Islam and the Bible. Walid Shoebat former PLO terrorist

It sparked this exchange which I will post for as long as the dialog lasts. I invite all to follow the exchange and share your prayers and  thoughts in the comments section. To Christ Jesus be the glory!

Riaz challenge ??? whats so interesting about this video ???? A terrorist converted to Christianity and support israel??? whats your point Mr hassan ?? do u want us to believe in him ???

Hassan Nurullah Did you watch the video in it's entirety Mohammad? If you watched the video in it's entirety and you ask me that question, I will have to question your intellect, as that is not the sort of question this video would foster in a thinking man.

Riaz Mr Hassan help me understand this video...what do u want us to know?? whats your point???

Hassan Nurullah Did you watch it?

Paul Hassan, I did not watch the video but you must understand, these men see no relation to terrorists and themselves...Anymore than you would see a commonality to the unabomber. I do not think they are terrorists, either. But they are in need of the Savoir.

Nicole I watched it. This video is gives an account of a man who was raised in an Islamic cult, as opposed to the religion of The Holy Prophet Muhammad (saws). None of what he has shared is the Islam that I know. He shared a lot of cultural callowness, and misinterpretations, but he shared not an ounce of Islam. I'm gathering that your challenge of watching this video was to incite some sort of mental jarring? Well as an ex Christian of over nearly 40 years, that included teaching bible study, and Sunday school, I am not moved at all by this video. His Islamic Knowledge is minimal at best, and his Christian experience is saturated with cognitive dissonance and emotions. Islam has afforded us Muslims with sound doctrine that touches and satisfies both the spirit and the intellect. Do you have another video to share?

Jolene LOL--nice candid thoughts NIcole

Hassan Nurullah The video has nothing to do with the PLO despite the title. It has to do with prophecy. What specifically do you find wrong that he says in the video eschatologically and doctrinally speaking Nicole.

As an ex-Muslim I can tell you that it is not possible to be a Christian in truth and become a Muslim. As you have said Nicole there is a difference between being a cultural Christian and a true Christian as there is a difference between cultural Islam and the Islam of the Qur'an.

Let us reason together my friends, what specifically do you disagree with, let's take it point by point. I want as many people as possible to benefit from this exchange, can we take it to a more public forum? Again I offer my blog, which anyone in the world can access. Can we take this exchange public?

You are correct in one respect though Nicole, the video is meant to be jarring. The yoke of Islam is heavy. It took a series of jarring issues and cold hard logic to pull me out of it's grasp after 30 years.

The one thing I have found repeatedly in exchanges with Muslims now is a vagueness whenever a difficult question is asked and an appeal is often made to nebulous scholars who never seem to have answers beyond abrogations, which should not be necessary if the words in the Qur'an indeed come from God.

Beginning with this video, or as I offered earlier my own article. Let's be specific.

 
Nicole Hassan: There's absolutely nothing wrong with the video. It served its purpose. It reinforced cultural stereotypes, to a group of elderly Muslim Hunters who need to feel empowered and superior within their beliefs. It demonstrated his emotions, and his experiences, while confirming what the audience needed to hear anyway. I'm sure the basket was passed and he received a substantial "Love offering", and spoke of the blood of Jesus (AstagfirAllah) shortly before the alter call. In short, The "Speaker" sold his story to the culturally biased, and all was well in MayBerry.

Now, to break down your little video, would be my pleasure, however before I dignify any of this with an ounce of my precious energy, I must let you know where I'm coming from.... Brother.

I've witnessed your arrogance, disrespect, belittling commentary and Narcissistic behavior up and down Brother Muhammad's page and it is disgusting. I don't know if your extensive biblical knowledge has covered the attitude of Christ yet, but in case they haven't you may want get a little familiar with it.

You've already "tried to insult me", within your first paragraph by implying that I didn't practice Christianity in truth. Well, because I understand the behaviors of Narcissists and Christians.... I'll let that one slide.

Your passive aggressive insults to others who have chosen to think cognitively or differently than you is disgusting. I will return with a complete analysis of your "widdle scary video" soon Insha'Allah.

Hassan Nurullah You've certainly proved you are adept at ad hominem attacks Nicole, I look forward to your analysis of the video.

(PS) This article includes the totality of my activities "up and down Brother Muhammad's page".

Ameenah ‎@Hassan, It won't matter who comes along and gives their interpretation of this video, they won't be right unless they agree with you. There is no dialogue to be had with people who are antagonistic and like to trivialize, demean, and treat people as if they are at the bottom of an "intellectual" barrel. This is crazy. Where is the tolerance, love, and compassion, Hassan. Why the extreme vengeance against a religion that you followed for a very long time?

 James 3:13-18. Have you read your new Holy Book regarding humility and arrogance?

13Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show it by his good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom. 14But if you harbor bitter e...nvy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. 15Such "wisdom" does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, of the devil. 16For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice.

17But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. 18Peacemakers who sow in peace raise a harvest of righteousness. 

Hassan Nurullah Nothing less than souls are at stake Ameenah! The love lies in my desire to see you saved from a false belief. If you see a person in error and their very life is at stake, do you stand by and watch harm come to them because you fear hurting their feelings?

Is Dr. Muhammad's posting of the article "Jesus saved from Accursed Death" (an attack against the very core of Christian belief) an exercise in intolerance, or is it an attempt to correct what he sees as error. I feel he is wrong as is the analysis in the article. But I respect his attempt to correct what he sees as error.

The video I posted here does the same thing. If you wish, we could take "Jesus saved from Accursed Death" as the subject of our discussion. I do not care what the subject is, the light of truth will shine.

I harbor no bitterness or envy nor selfish ambition, I merely challenge your belief in a false god. I can find no place in any scripture where the God of the Holy Bible or the Qur'an treats false belief with meekness. Certainly the prophets didn't, nor did Christ and the Apostles.

The Bible also says: John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

And:

I Corinthians 2:
1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. 2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. 3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. 4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: 5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. 6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Galatians 1:

6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. 10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ. 11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. 12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

The Jesus of the Qur'an constitutes another gospel.

Ameenah Muhammad can put whatever he wants on his page. Just like you. It's your own little "virtual" real estate.

"You can't squeeze blood from a turnip."
"You get more bees with honey than you do with vinegar."
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle... with a pig, you get dirty; and besides, the pig likes it."
"A hard head makes a soft behind."

Ever heard of these? You should really tone it down a bit. You're starting to appear a bit extreme and overzealous, the exact thing you accuse Muslims of. Good night. Try not to "incite", don't let the bed bugs bite.

Hassan Nurullah I don't remember accusing Muslims of being extreme or overzealous, just in error!

Jolene ‎"eschatologically" --do what? gunzuntite? Hassan I like you said this:
The one thing that I have found repeatedly in exchanges with Muslims now is a vagueness whenever a difficult question is asked and an appeal is often made to nebulous scholars who never seem to have answers beyond abrogations, which should not be necessary if the words in the Qur'an indeed come from God.

Nicole i liked what you said:

I've witnessed your arrogance, disrespect, belittling commentary and Narcissistic behavior up and down Brother Muhammad's page and it is disgusting. I don't know if your extensive biblical knowledge has covered ...the attitude of Christ yet, but in case they haven't you may want get a little familiar with it.

You've already "tried to insult me", within your first paragraph by implying that I didn't practice Christianity in truth. Well, because I understand the behaviors of Narcissists and Christians.... I'll let that one slide.

Your passive aggressive insults to others who have chosen to think cognitively or differently than you is disgusting.

Riaz Hassan bro i m still waiting . what is the challenge ??? i saw this vid n its like all other vids n lectures by bible thumpers aggressively pushing their Christian beliefs upon those who do not share them . i m still thinking y u posted... this vid here on this wall??? what do u want to tell

us ?? 1 . its against islam 2. its bout the prophesies in the bible 3.its about the end time n proving that Al mahdi is an anti christ ?? 4. bible as a true words of god ??? 5 . his conversion to christianity 6. his sympathies for israel 7.is he your ideal ? Whaaaaaaaaaattttttttt is the question brother . if its about the prophesies in the bible then bro hassan its not the place where we can talk about prophesies .. we need to discuss on every point...i will give you one example .in the book of job.".How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a women" so this is a prophesy bout jesus??? so anyone who is born of a women cannot be God. so again we need discussion n there r so many vids by muslim scholars discussing n proving prophesies about Mohammad in the bible. u must also watch
those vids.

His sympathies and love with jews and israel n see muslims as nazis He forgot to mention that it was European Christians who slaughtered six million Jews. How can you love Jews when they think that Jesus was a false messiah??

His knowledge about Islam is minimal . He doesn't know that the ink of the scholar is holier than the blood of the martyr in Islam.He should have mentioned the place of jesus crist in islam.no muslim is a muslim if he doesn't believe in Jesus. islaam The honour of women in islam . Hijab vs bikini

i dont want to say this but if u post this type of pseudo intellectual vid prophesies islam and the bible then let me lso quote G. B Shaw. The most dangerous book on the face of the earth keep it under lock n key.

Hassan Nurullah Riaz said:

" we need to discuss on every point...i will give you one example .in the book of job.".How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a women" so this is a prophesy bout jesus??? so anyone who is born of a women cannot be God.."

I don't know what you are referring to in Job, (specifics please) but, at the very beginning of time in the Garden as recorded in the Book of Genesis God tells Satan:

"And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel" (Genesis 3:15).

This was the first time God revealed something about His plan for the salvation of the world- Jesus Christ, Son of Mary (the seed of the woman) who would bruise the head of the devil (the serpent). It is called the "Proto-Evangellum) the first Gospel.

I have heard Muslims try to claim that Muhammad was the prophet foretold in Deuteronomy 18:18, this is impossible.

Deuteronomy 18:18: I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

Let's examine this verse:

"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren,"

Who is them and their referring to? (Them) He is talking specifically to about the Levites as is plain from the context of the verses directly in front of verse 18:18. God is saying that the prophet will not be a Levite, but will come from their brethren. The Levites are not brothers to Ismael.

Deuteronomy 18:15: ¶The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

In fact, in this chapter God warns them not to do as the outsiders do, to be separate. The descendants of Ismael are not listed among the tribes of Israel, the brothers of Levi.

In verse 18 God says "like unto thee" speaking specifically to Moses. What makes Moses unique? Moses' uniqueness is not found in this verse, as every prophet spoke the words God put in their mouths, e.g. God tells Jeremiah:

"Behold I have put my words in your mouth". Jeremiah 1.9

So what makes Moses unique? We do find out at the end of Deuteronomy:

"But since then there has not arisen in Israel a prophet like Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face, 11 in all the signs and wonders which the LORD sent him to do in the land of Egypt, before Pharaoh, before all his servants, and in all his land, 12 and by all that mighty power and all the great terror which Moses performed in the sight of all Israel.
Deut. 34:10-12

Here the uniqueness is established. 1) Moses talked directly to God face to face.

"Of some messengers We have already told thee the story; of others We have not;― and to Moses Allah spoke direct."Surah 4:164

Muhammad said the words came to him through the angel Gabriel. Moses also displayed great signs and wonders, so the coming prophet would also have to show great signs and wonders to be like unto Moses.

Muhammad performed no signs and wonders. Although the Hadith record some fanciful miracles, these are purely mythical, for the Qur'an very clearly says of Muhammad that he performed no signs. In Surah 6.37, when Muhammad's adversaries say "Why has no sign been sent down to him from his Lord?", Muhammad is bidden to reply merely that God could send one if he wanted to but had not done so.

" They say: "Why is not a Sign sent down to him from his Lord?" Say: "Allah hath certainly power to send down a Sign: but most of them understand not." Surah 6.37

The entirety of the 6th Surah pretty much deals with why there are no signs shown by Muhammad.

Surah 28:48 "But (now) when the Truth has come to them from Ourselves, they say "Why are not (Signs) sent to him, like those which were sent to Moses?" Do they not then reject (the Signs) which were formerly sent to Moses? They say: "Two kinds of sorcery, each assisting the other!" And they say: "For us, we reject all (such things)!"

Regardless of the fact that they would reject the signs, (like many of the Jews rejected the signs of Christ) It is still a legitimate question-- why no signs from Muhammad if he is a prophet like unto Moses, there should be signs and wonders to prove it. Yet, the Qur'an records no miracles from Muhammad like the ones recorded in the Qur'an that were performed by Jesus and the other prophets.

Also, Muhammad did not establish a covenant between God and Israel like Moses did.

You may be able to find some superficial similarities, but when it gets down to what the Word of God establishes as the uniqueness of Moses that would be found in the coming prophet, Muhammad does not fit the bill.

As for the relevance of the video, you may not want to see, (like those who ignore all the signs from God as we discussed above) but some who watch it will.

For many are called, but few [are] chosen. Matthew 22:14

To be continued (I hope) Keep checking back for more!

Lovely Gift Remember that negations are to b found in the words of jesus as well. The pharisees demanded signs, but jesus said regretfully: "why doth this generation seek after a sign? Verily, i say unto you, there shall no sign b given unto this generation." (mark, 8:11)

Allah says: you want a sign that should bring conviction to you. Why then ask for a sign of punishment? Is not the sign of mercy _the Holy Quran_ sufficient for this purpose, whose bright and refulgent rays dazzle your eyes, and which reve...als to you it's inherent excellences, it's verities and it's miraculous qualities, the like of which you can never produce. The Quran is already exerting it's miraculus influence on you and your people. It is decending upon hearts and bringing about a wonderful tranceformation. It is restoring life to those who have long been dead, and restoring vision to those who have been blind through generations. The Quran is curing a variety of diseases associated with disbelief and heresy. Lepers of acute prejudice are being washed clean of thier prejudice. It brings about union with God and produces signs indicative of this union. Why turn away from this sign of mercy which bestows everlasting life, and ask for a sign of destruction.

Hassan Nurullah Mark 8:11? You have to be kidding, Christ performed miracles directly before and after this question from the Pharisees. He refused the Pharisees because they represented willful disbelief. (Not unlike the pharisaical disbelief displayed by Muslims who refuse to recognize Christ for who He said and scripture testifies that He is). Mark 8 was a poor choice to make in trying to illustrate a "negation" in the Holy Bible.

I like the way Matthew Henry puts it in regards Mark 8:11:

"Obstinate unbelief will have something to say, though ever so unreasonable. Christ refused to answer their demand. If they will not be convinced, they shall not. Alas! what cause we have to lament for those around us, who destroy themselves and others by their perverse and obstinate unbelief, and enmity to the gospel! When we forget the works of God, and distrust him, we should chide ourselves severely, as Christ here reproves his disciples. How is it that we so often mistake his meaning, disregard his warnings, and distrust his providence?"

How does the Qur'an bestow everlasting life? There is no assurance of salvation in Islam! Miracles are not always a sign of "destruction" or "chastisement". You are offering metaphorical miracles, ("miraculous influence") A reader of the damnable Vedas could make such claims! Meanwhile Moses, Christ Jesus, the Apostles performed real miracles recorded in the Holy Bible and even in the Qur'an.

To be continued 

Lovely Gift There many miracles stated hadiths and u know them very well, but u said they r "mythical" now how can you say jesus performed miracles ? The gospels were writen so long after the death of jesus.


Riaz Mr hassan we all are still waiting for that challenge ?

Miracles :"

Hassaan Nurullah said :
...
" so the coming prophet would also have to show great signs and wonders to be like unto Moses.
Muhammad performed no signs and wonders. Although the Hadith record some fanciful miracles, these are purely mythical, for the Qur'an very clearly says of Muhammad that he performed no signs.WHY NO SIGNS FROM MOHAMMAD "

Jesus (Pbuh) said:
 

" an evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign " mthw 12:39

Hassan Miracles do not prove prophet hood this what jesus said.

""For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."(Matthew 24:24)

i say : hassan u r right these r superficial things u have to go deep i totally agree with u n as Jesus said Miracles re superficial things.

Hassan said : " why no signs from Muhammad if he is a prophet "

jesus will answer u again:
 

" verily i say unto you,among them that are born of a women there hath not risen a greater than john the baptist"

greater then moses david solomon..... AND HE PERFORMED NOT A SINGLE MIRACLE.

hassan bro again im asking you what sign r u talking about ???

I say : the greatest sign is hundred million followers in the world today of a man without any sign given. this is the greatest sign than all the signs .

1 " the most influential person int he history " M HART The 100

"NO SIGN" (jesus No3 with all miracles)

2 "perheps the greatest leader of all the time was mohmmad..to al lesser degree MOSES DID THE SAME " TIME MAG .....NO SIGN

3. "He must be clled the Savior of humanity" GB shaw NO SIGN

4. " the most successful of all religious personality "

Encyclopedia britannica NO SIGN
5 " mohammad as a hero Prophet " of thomas carlyle NO SIGN

6. ""If greatness of purpose, smallness of means, and astounding results are the three criteria of human genius, who could dare to compare any great man in modern history with Muhammad? The most famous men created arms, laws and empires only. They founded, if anything at all, no more than material powers which often crumbled away before their eyes. This man moved not only armies, legislations, empires, peoples and dynasties, but millions of men in one-third of the then inhabited world; and more than that, he moved the altars, the gods, the religions, the ideas, the beliefs and souls"

"Philosopher, orator, apostle, legislator, warrior, conqueror of ideas, restorer of rational dogmas, of a cult without images; the founder of twenty terrestrial empires and of one spiritual empire that is Muhammad. As regards all standards by which human greatness may be measured, we may well ask, is there any man greater than Muhammad?"
 

Lamartine NO SIGN

100 million followers..... n no sign...
 

" but most of the mankind do not know" Al Quran

When they are told, "Believe in the way that others believe", they say, "What! Are we to believe in the way that fools believe?" No indeed! They are the fools, but they do not know it. (Surat al-Baqara: 13)

"Deaf, dumb and blind, they understand nothing" (Surat al-Baqara: 171)

" and they the jews and christian will never never be satisfied with you until you follow their religion"

Hassan Nurullah @Lovely Gift The last books of the Holy Bible were completed before AD 98; within 70 years of the death and resurrection of Christ Jesus. The four Gospels were all penned between 50 and 90 AD. There were literally thousands of people still... alive who witnessed first hand the various accounts recorded in the Gospels (including enemies of the early church) that could have and would have come forwards if they were false or inaccurate.

On the obverse side, The Qur,an was handed down completely orally for over 100 years after the death of Muhammad. It was not until the caliphate of Uthman, that he urged the formal writing down of the verses of the Qur'an. It had still not been accomplished before Uthman's death.

The Hadith were later still. Some 200 years after the death of Muhammad before the Hadith were written ending around 830-840AD.

@Riaz,Matthew 24:24 specifically addresses the end times. Regardless of the many verses downplaying miracles when it comes to faith, (one of the greatest you left out.) still records there presence from Christ and His disciples.

"¶But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe. 26 ¶And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. 27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. 29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. 30 ¶And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name." John 20:24-30

No amount of justification for the less than miraculous nature of Muhammad's time as a "prophet" will do in a serious discussion comparing him to Moses, which Deuteronomy claims will be the nature of the coming prophet.

Was Alexander the great miraculous? He conquered greater multitudes than Muhammad. Napoleon Bonaparte? Was the British Empire Miraculous? At one time it was said that the sun never sets on the British Empire, that's greater than Islam and Muhammad could possibly claim. There are some 1 billion Muslims, but there are some 2 Billion Christians. There's close to a Billion Hindus, is that Miraculous?

What about the other criteria making Moses unique--The covenant between Israel and God? The fact that Moses spoke directly to God face to face? The fact that the prophet had to be from among the brothers of Levi and therefore an Israeli?

Stay Tuned!

Riaz
1 . Don't challenge
2. Thanks for accepting that miracles do not prove prophet hood
3. " Matthew 24:24 specifically addresses the end times" ?????

who told you that he ws addressing the end time?????

if it is about end time still an evil will seeketh after a sign
4. i totally agree what u said about the miracles

( Nap and British empire)
5. Deut 18: 18

christian scholar claim that this prophesy refer to Jesus. i will say only one thing n will nt be superficial i say Jesus is most unlike Moses...one thing n the most important that according to Christianity Jesus is god but moses is not. simple u cant debate on it . jesus died for your sin wht bout moses did he die for your sin .
to cut it short julius masserman a jewish psychoanalyst said
"perheps the greatest leader of all the time was mohmmad..to al lesser degree MOSES DID THE SAME "

so that y i m saying its useless to discuss prophesies and dont post such videos. hope u don't mind

Hassan Nurullah I'm afraid that none of what you said made any sense my friend.

"who told you that he ws addressing the end time?????"

He did LOL!

Matthew 24:3

"¶And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Christ then launches into an explanation that goes from verse 4 all the way past your verse 24 to the entirety of the 25th chapter. This prophecy includes the parable of the Fig Tree (Israel) and how the generation that sees the recreation of the Jewish state, (which happened in 1947)  after the Jewish diaspora beginning with Hadrian's assault on Israel, would not all die before the return of Christ.

You need to read scripture in context and stop merely aping the nonsense that so called "scholars" put out on anti-Christ websites to deceive people.

You are right about one thing my friend, Jesus is God!

Riaz my friend, I think it is best that you leave this discussion to someone better qualified to prosecute it, it is not going to be enough to repeat the mouthings of as I said earlier, nebulous scholars who, themselves lack proper understanding.

Deuteronomy 18:18 certainly refers to Jesus as testified by scripture, the Apostle Peter teaches:

" But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled. 19  ¶Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20  And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21  Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. 22  For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23  And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. 24  Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. 25  Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. 26  Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities." Acts 3:18-26

In Acts 7.37, Stephen appealed to Deuteronomy 18.18 as proof that Moses was one of those who had "announced beforehand the coming of the Righteous One", Jesus, the one whom the Jews had recently betrayed and crucified.

Riaz, you can put your faith in your "scholars", I choose to believe the living Word of God!


The arguments from my friends are getting thinner!

Riaz  Say : "O Al-Kâfirûn

2. "I worship not that which you worship,
3. "Nor will you worship that which I worship.
4. "And I shall not worship that which you are worshipping.
5. "Nor will you worship that which I worship.

6. "To you be your religion, and to me my religion." Al Quran.

Hassan Nurullah That may be a truism if you fear the truth. You are making my point for me Riaz, You are shutting down your reason to hold dogmatically to a position which you are finding it difficult to defend, as opposed to considering my arguments. this is the height of irrationality. You are copping out when you make such statements. The Qur'an is copping out.

The Holy Bible says:

"And who is he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good? 14 But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled; 15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: 16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ. " I Peter 3:13-16

Emphasis on verse 15!

Losing steam? 

Riaz Hassan i dont want to end this discussion neither i m shutting my reasons...n i know how to defend if u read the whole thread n i will advise everyone to read it again....u couldn't defend yourself n u said

"Riaz my friend, I think it is b...est that you leave this discussion to someone better qualified to prosecute it "
"Riaz, you can put your faith in your "scholars", I choose to believe the living Word of God!"

so i replied

Say : "O Al-Kâfirûn
2. "I worship not that which you worship,
3. "Nor will you worship that which I worship.
4. "And I shall not worship that which you are worshipping.
5. "Nor will you worship that which I worship.
...6. "To you be your religion, and to me my religion." Al Quran.

These r the tactics u learned brother how to run away from your own comments....u didn't even ans my first question...what is the challenge brother ???

n if u want more discussion brother than i am ready , but u want to have discussion with someone better qualified.

i will end with this beautiful verse of Quran

"Say: O People of the Scripture! Come to a common word between us and you: that we shall worship none but God, and that we shall ascribe no partner unto Him, and that none of us shall take others for lords beside God. And if they turn away, then say: Bear witness that we are they who have surrendered (unto Him)."

Hassan Nurullah You've completely lost me my friend. Your first question, "what is the challenge" seemed more rhetorical than an actual question LOL. I thought you were making light of my challenge; as the challenge itself was for you to watch the video as it clearly says. Nothing beyond that. Perhaps I should have added "with an open mind".

I'm not sure where I ran from my own comment, as usual you are not being specific.

As for the " beautiful verse of Quran", it further illustrates the lack of understanding that the writer of the Qur'an has of the totality of the true revelation that came before it. As I said earlier, the onus of proof of legitimacy lies with the Qur'an and Islam.

If Muhammad had known scripture prior to the entity that he claims was the angel Gabriel approached him, he would have had to reject what that entity said because it contradicted what came before it.

"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed." Galatians 1:8

A few of my questions you have completely ignored in this thread:

1) How does the Qur'an bestow everlasting life, there is no assurance of salvation in Islam?

2 )What about the other criteria making Moses unique--The covenant between Israel and God, did Muhammad make such a covenant?

3) What about the fact that the prophet had to be from among the brothers of Levi and therefore an Israeli?

Not to mention you completely ignore every time I correct something that you were wrong about, like your question:

"who told you that he ws addressing the end time?????"

or the nonsense that Lovely Gift spouted about the Gospels having been written so long after Christ.

I made the "it's best you leave this discussion" comment, when you began to not act like an honest broker and address where you were proven wrong, which seems to suggest that you cannot defend your position. You are doing the same thing now by trying to shift the discussion to me as opposed to dealing with the issues I have raised in this thread.

It ain't over yet I guess! 

Tabish I hate the way believers of jesus behave towards women perhaps an example given by jesus speaking about his mother. Hassan how can u say what lovely gift said was nonsence? It is infact the truth.


Hassan try to b mindful of your words or u will invite the wrath of Allah upon yourself. The Quran was revealed and recorded at the SAME TIME in portions. Hazrat Abubakar the 1st caliph of The Holy Prophet peace and blessing of Allah be upon him had already gathered the peices on which the holy verses had been writen FIRST HAND In the time of hazrat UMER It was put into form of a book. In the time of hazrat uthman STANDARD COPIES WERE PRODUCED and sent to provinces.

Lovely Gift Yes hassan just read what tabish tash told you and think. unlike the bible, which u hav said was writen 90 years after jesus by people who never saw him. Eg luke. And by the way what do u mean to tell me by saying some thing like bible was recorded first hand by people who new jesus personally, Do u mean to say SUCKLING BABIES in cradles wittnessed jesus and then recorded the bible at the ages of 90 or 100 when crippled by old age?!


And hassan you are missing something inspite of all your knowledge! How could u miscalculate the period between the demise of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) and the 3rd caliph? It was only TWELVE YEARS mind u! just have a look at the diffrence! In 12 years the holy Quran was already in the shape of a book! After 90yrs bible in the process of being recorded! YOU TALK ABOUT DIFFRENCES!

Hassan Nurullah  @Tabash, It was gathered together because those who had memorized it, as it was strictly oral until then, were being killed in the wars caused by Islam's proselytizing by the sword. The copy compiled by Abu Bakr was utterly destroyed when it was seized by Marawan Ibn Al-Hakam, the governor of Medina.

There were some 7 variants or recitations of the Qur'an delivered to Uthman. Uthman compared them to the Abu Bakr version before it was destroyed and then by all accounts arbitrarily burned 6 of them as, all 7 varied from the Abu Bakr version. They then used those two texts to compile the text that was sent to the various provinces. So it is impossible to know just how accurate what you have is in regards to the original.

The Qur'an was again modified during the Amawian epoch, culminating around 714. And it was still being largely orally Transmitted, as is evidenced when it is said that this version compiled by Al-Hajaj Ibn Yousef Al-Thaqafy was:

"depending on enormous unfamiliar verbalisms, and what corresponded to them from poetry, and a new quran emerged containing speckling, and figuration - Al-Sajistany mentioned that Al-Hajaj changed 11 sites from the quran of Othman “ There was also the introduction of vowels.

As for the differences in the way that followers of Christ and followers of Islam treat woman, my friend you really don't want to go there.

@Lovely Gift
The Gospels were written as I said, between 50-90 AD 20-60 years after Christ's death and resurrection. The Gospels were written with apostolic authority, they were either written by an apostle, like John or someone who was close to an apostle. Luke was a gentile historian and friend of the Apostle Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles.

I did not say that all of the authors of the New Testament and Gospels knew Christ personally or witnessed His Crucifixion first hand. I said:

"There were literally thousands of people still alive who witnessed first hand the various accounts recorded in the Gospels (including enemies of the early church) that could have and would have come forwards if they were false or inaccurate."

Let me give you an example. President John Fitzgerald Kennedy was assassinated in 1963. People may dispute who killed him, but no one disputes how he was killed, or where he was shot, or where he was pronounced dead. There are people writing books about him now and for the last 47 years. Books that have been written by people alive in 1963 and some born after.

I was born in 1964, if I decided to write a book saying that JFK was shot in the head pronounced dead but then a paramedic saved him, he recovered, but he didn't want to be President anymore so he just lived the rest of his life in obscurity. There would be a great multitude of people who would come forwards and pronounce me a kook. Including his friends and family.

And still, none of you have dealt with the questions I have raised! I have answered yours!

 Seems to be getting a bit tense, not sure if I was threatened in that last exchange.

Tabish Tash Hassan, for your kind information, the Holy Quran was REVEALED orally by God to the Holy prophet (saw) then imediatly it was written on pieces. What you should know is that the pieces on which the Holy Quran was written were gathered in on...e place in the house of Hazrat Aiysha (ra) after the death of the Holy prophet (saw). The people who were killed were sent by the Holy prophet(saw) to an other tribe and they were 70 in number. Their killing did not hinder the pieces on which the original scripture was written. During the time of hazrat Abu bakar (ra), hazrat Usman (ra) asked him to collect these pieces and get them written in the form of a book. But did not do so becoze of his firm faith in the word of God stated in the Holy Quran which said the security of the Holy Quran was God's own responsibility. But in the time of hazrat Omar the Quran was put in form in the form of of a book. The pieces on which the holy Quran was written in the supervision of the holy Prophet himself were still in the house of hazrat Aiysha and another copy was made. Still thousands of people were there who memorized the holy Quran. Then finally in the time of Hazrat Osman the standard copies (the pieces on which the holy Quran was written did not contain the signs for the correct reading of. These copies contained such signs for muslims how dont know arabic) were prepared and sent to the provensis. For this also the pieces on which the Holy Quran was written were used to make there copies. Hazrat also knew the holy Quran himself also, therefor there was no problem in this process. You said 7 copies were made and six burned... are all stories! No muslim can think of such stories, because God says the scurrity of the holy Quran is his. You also said the Quran was ceased by someone, ok if it was ceased, only the copy in madina would have been ceased what about the other copies on one ceased them. Befor the holy Quran was widely spread in the muslims, so if he ceased one or more copies it dose not matter. You talk about the new version of the holy Quran, I dont now which website or blog you searched for such an insane matter. God says in the holy Quran That no body can change even a single dot of the holy Quran, forget of new version. We have seen many examples of such people who tried to change just a single word how God the Almighty destroyed them and there offsprings. Let me give you the latest example, in the time of promised messiah, a man tried to change two words of the holy Quran. He contacted all the printing presses in the city to print the version he produced but no one did so for him. At last he bought some machines and carried them home to do the printing himself. The day he did so whole of his family got playge, when there was no sign of it in the town he lived. He and his family members died. And once again the truthfulness of the word of God in the Holy Quran was testified. Dont worry after this i will come to your questions. 

Hassan Nurullah  LOL, but all you have said are not stories--OK! 

Lovely Gift Thank u for accepting that the copy of Holy Quran we have today is the authentic copy revealed by God and compiled together under His devine guidance. Now we shall proceed to your questions. 

Hassan Nurullah I do no such thing, I do not believe that the Qur'an is divine in nature, I don't care if you have the original Qur'an or not, it is not the word of God. God is not the author of confusion. 

Lovely Gift  Salvation is the ultimate objective which follower of every religion hope to attain. But unfortunately, most people remain unawere and unmindful of the true meaning of salvation. To the christains, salvation means diliverence from the accou...ntability of sin, but this cannot b it's true meaning, for it is quite possible that a persön may not b guilty of commiting any sin, and yet he might b deprived of the benefits of salvation. Salvation infact is abiding peace and happieness which man by his very nature hungers and thirsts for. And which is achieved through personal love and recognition of God. And through a perfect relationship with Him. One of the signs of a true religion is that it leads man to this true happiness. Through the GUIDANCE OF THE HOLY QURAN we arrive at the subtle truth that everlasting happiness lies in the recognition of God and in and in pure and perfect personal love for Him and in absolute faith, which causes the heart to become restless like a true lover. The same thing has been referred to in this verse: Al-Rum,30:31 i.e., It has been ingrained in human nature that it will always seek after the One and Only God, and will not find true happiness in any thing apart from it's union with Him. The real source and essence of salvation is man's personal love for God, which leads to his union with Him, because a lover cannot remain separate from his beloved. Since God Himself is Light, His love produces 'the light of salvation'. The love which is ingrained in human nature draws the love for God, and then God's personal love gives extraordinary strength and enthusiasm to man's personal love, and the union of the two results in the state of 'annihilation'(fana) and culminates in the light of 'immortality with God' (Baqa Billah). Spiritual annihilation requires two kinds of fires: the heavenly fire and the inner fire of man.The meeting of both these fires creates a state of 'annihilation (fana), without which the spiritual journey remains incomplete. This is the state of 'annihilation'(fana) where the jouney of the wayfarers comes to an end, and it is the limit beyond which human endeavour cannot go. After reaching the point of fana, man is granted thd status of 'eternity' (Baqa) as a gift and a favour.

This is what the following verse points to: Al-Fatihah, 1:7 Briefly stated, it means that anyone who attains this station, attains it as a reward and through God's grace.

Al-mai'da 5:17; yunus 10:58; Al-nahal 16:66; Al-Ra'd 13:18; Al-Hajj 22:64; Al-zumar 39:24; Al-Ra'd 13:29; Al-mujadalah 58:23; Al-nahl 16:103; Al-hijr 15:10; Al-Bayyinah 98:4; Bani isra'il 17:89 That is: The holy Quran guides to the path of peace and leads people out of every darkness into light.it is a cure for whatever disease there is in the hearts.Allah has sent down water which has quickened the earth after its death.He has sent down water so that every valley may flow according to its measure.He sends down water and the barren earth becomes green. The skins of those who fear their lord creep at it, then their skins and their hearts soften to the remembrance of Allah. Remember, it is in the Quran that hearts can find true comfort. Faith is inscribed in the hearts of those who follow the Quran, and they are blessed with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit has brought down the Quran, so that it may strengthen the hearts of the believers, and b a sign of guidance and glad_tidings for muslims. It is we who have sent down the Quran and it is We who shall surly be its Guardian.
Hassan your first question has been answered! If u use a peice of thinking (inshallah) u will not need any more explanation.

 
The confusion lies within YOU dear friend, NOT in God or His Holy Quran! If u cannot investigate, ask a question, i will answer if Allah so pleases. Or lets move to your 2nd question, what do u say?

Aleem Butt The belief that The Holy Quran is not devine is due to the lack of intellect and lack of understanding. GOD is really not the author of confusion, the sayings above are similar to those school kids who lack stuff in the upper department and do not understand algebra and blame Al-Khwarizmi for creating the confusion. ;)  

Tabish Tash Mr hassan The problem is that you dont have much knowledge to understand the holy Quran. To understand it your knowledge should be very wide. But dont worry friend just ask me i will answer (inshallah). 

Hassan Nurullah @ Lovely Gift, That goes back to what I said earlier, the onus of proof is with the Qur'an to prove that what it says supersedes what came before it. The Holy Bible says the exact opposite about the nature of man in both Old and new testam...ents. Man's heart does not naturally seek to love God as you say:

"Salvation infact is abiding peace and happieness which man by his very nature hungers and thirsts for. "

"It has been ingrained in human nature that it will always seek after the One and Only God,"

"The love which is ingrained in human nature draws the love for God,"

The Holy Bible says this about man's nature:

"And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. " Genesis 6:5

"And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done. " Genesis 8:21

Even after the great flood the Bible makes it clear that man's hostility towards God still manifests in sin and iniquities which puts us at odds with God:

"This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead." Ecclesiastes 9:3

" Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear: 2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear. 3 For your hands are defiled with blood, and your fingers with iniquity; your lips have spoken lies, your tongue hath muttered perverseness. 4 None calleth for justice, nor any pleadeth for truth: they trust in vanity, and speak lies; they conceive mischief, and bring forth iniquity." Isaiah 59:1-4

"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. 7 And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities. Isaiah 64: 6,7

You said:

"Since God Himself is Light, His love produces 'the light of salvation'. The love which is ingrained in human nature draws the love for God,"

Yet God's Word says:

"And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil." John 3:19

"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one." Romans 3:10-12

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.": I Corinthians 2:14

This is the difference between the Holy God of the Holy Bible and Allah. In Islam you believe that man reaches out to Allah, he does this by following the Qur'an and doing good deeds, keeping the five pillars... If you do these things maybe Allah will let you into paradise. If your good deeds outweigh your bad. How do you know when you have done enough good to please Allah? How does a maybe give TRUE peace.

The God of the Holy Bible says:

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.:" John 6:44

"Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." Revelation 3:20

The God of the Holy Bible says that there is not enough good that you can do to make yourself clean in the eyes of a Holy God. He says all of your righteous deeds are as filthy rags.

He makes a way for us to be reconciled to Him, something we can never do for ourselves. Again, how do you know when you do enough good to counter act your sins? You cannot! He came in the flesh and died for all of us who deserve only death.

It is only faith in the finished work of the cross that grants salvation. Not any work that man can do to please God. Only God can ultimate please God.

 

‎"1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast." Epesians 2:1-9

God says it would be in man's nature to boast if he could work out his own salvation through good works. The Holy God of the Holy Bible unlike Allah, says that man is incapable of seeking after God unless He first calls them to the truth. This is done through the good news of the gospel that Christ died to cover the sins that we are utterly incapable of atoning for in our own power.

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." Romans 10:13-17

The God of the Holy Bible loves you so much Lovely Gift, Tabish, Riaz, Nicole, Dr. Ali... That he does not leave you with false hope or maybes, he says that if you believe in the free gift I give to you in the form of the Lord Jesus Christ you WILL be saved. Not maybe, YOU WILL BE SAVED!

It is that assurance that then frees man to do good works, as he is indwelt by the Holy Spirit and endowed with the mind of Christ, that delivers man from dead works. No man loves God until God is in him and God does not dwell in those whose sins have not been forgiven by inviting Christ into your life.

He is reaching out to you right now, God so loved the world that he gave His Son so that any who believe in the Son will have everlasting life. This is the gospel message. If you have read it, you will have no excuse when you face Him on judgment day. This is the TRUE LIGHT that gives life you either believe or you reject the Light. Those who truly seek after God will know His Voice when they hear it.

"Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. 25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and my Father are one. " John 24-30

Here God says no one can pluck one of His believers from His hand. This is blessed assurance of salvation. No scales to weigh sins against good deeds. The sheep know their master's voice.

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:" Matthew 25:31-34

Are you a goat or a sheep?

Hassan Nurullah Exactly Aleem, GOD is not the author of confusion--That is precisely my point! I'm not confused at all the author of the Quran who contradicts what came before it, is the author of confusion. 

No Excuses now I laid the Gospel down in this exchange!

Lovely Gift In school, one of my african professors used to say to students who failed to do thier home work properly, "u r a sheep, u havnt a bit of sence, u really r a sheep" and i never wanted to b a sheep then and now. Bcoz Allah created me a human being the best among His creations. I am coming with ur answer just wait.

Hassan Nurullah I will wait! Keep scouring the internet--search your scholars--You should know your theology!

A slight pause while my friends gird their loins! 

Lovely Gift U r right hassan, bible says so! Thats why jews killed jesus' because his teachings contradicted with what was revealed before it. (The old testament) they considered him to b a liar so they killed him and now u r saying he died for u cryin...g ailee ailee lemaa sabak tanee, why! He wasnt happy to die for u? But his cruel father killed him in spite of all his lamentations?

u r saying Holy Quran contradicts with what came before it? The same thing jews say, the teachings of jesus and bible contradicts with what came before it. The writers of bible r all confused and boxed_up. The bible also has contradictions in its self leave alone what was revealed before it. U r not in the possition of say a word about any other book, my friend, peep into ur own shirt, u dont want me to list the contradictions between varius books of bible???

i will not search websites hassan, i am an an ahmadi muslin and i only look at the books of the promised massiah and mahdi Mirza Gulam Ahmad of Qadian, who defeated ur fore fathers 120 years ago. Dr dovie is one of the victems who suffered the wrath of Allah at the encounter with the promised massaih(as). We shall come to that later but lets finish with what u spouted about the Holy Quran. I know my religion very well thats why i am on it firmly but i hav known this absurdity about christainity which i didnt know before THANX to u!

Dear Mr. Hassan before i proceed to answer u i wud like to ask a little question if u dont mind. I only want u to enlighten me with ur wast knowledge if jesus accended to heaven spiritully or physicall? If it was physical then which material form of transport did he use.

Aleem Due to the confusion you converted from muslim to christian, but then jesus was also a mosaic prophet and the bible has contradictions with the torah , but moses was a prophet and torah was GOD's word , so why dont u become a JEW due to this confusion as torah was before bible? 

my friend u r just a trouble maker and if u r sincere in ur search of truth you would had contacted an ahmadi muslim to give you a SATISFYING answer and he would had satisfied you so well that you would not feel the need to go further, but dramatizing it on facebook shows your intentions, see my above answer and tell me when r u becoming a JEW?

Lovely Gift thank u mr Hassan for inviting me and my friends to the salvation bible offers, of course u are a kind hearted person. But my prob is i hav two types of salvation before me, one of the bible and one of the Holy Quran, let me REASON before i make my choice.

The Quran clearly states in bani_israil, 17:16 i.e., No one will bear the burdens of another.
Let it be clear that the cristian doctrine that God, out of His love for the world and in order to bring salvation to mankind, transfered the sins of disobedient, disbelieving and wicked to His beloved son jesus and made him accursed and caused him to be hanged on the cursed cross to deliver the world from sin, is completely wrong and shameful from whatever aspect one may look at it. If weighed on Scales of justice, it is unjust and human conscience can never accept that a criminal should be allowed to go free while an innocent person is punished for his crimes. This doctrine is again falsified when we consider the reality of sin from the view point of spiritual philosophy. The fact is that sin is a poison that is born when man does not obey God, does not love Him and does not remember Him with love. Sin devastates man just as dryness kills a tree. 

Aleem Butt Mr hassan your GOD made a great mistake, instead of punishing his son, if he had punished the people and told them that they will be punished for their bad deeds , they would have learnt their lesson and today the world would not have been ...like this, i hope you read the newspaper every day.

the people will go on raping, committing thefts, murdering others and your GOD will go on punishing his own son for this??????????????
please stop talking this way, your own words are degrading your own GOD as punishing his own son is doing NO GOOD to world nor humanity.

Lovely Gift Sorry i was interupted. Here i continue.

Every sensible person shud reflect with fairness and justice if God had indeed pronounced jesus to b his son and had transferred the curse of others to him, and had pronounced this accursed sacrifice... to b the means of salvation, and this was the teaching that had also been given to the jews, why have they concealed it to this day?!? And why do they oppose it so vehemently????

Lovely Gift Continue,; The jews hav always maintained that the principles of salvation laid down in the torah are the SAME as those prescribed by the Quran. They testified to this when the Holy Quran was being revealed and continue to do so to this day....

This doctrine appears even more untenable when viewed from yet another angle, i.e., what benifit has this accursed sacrifice brought to those who believe in it and thus oppose the eternal teaching of the Torah, place one mans sins upon another, and condemn a pure and pious person as being accursed, alianated from God and a friend of satan?? Has this prevented them from commiting sin? Or hav all thier sins been forgiven?
David also believed in the atonement of christ but they further assert that there after he murdered an inocent person in order to commit adultry with his wife, misappropiriated the state treasury for the satisfaction of his own selfish desires, married as many as 100 women and continued to commit sin every day until the end of his life.

Hassan Nurullah I will continue to argue from scripture, you can continue to offer your opinions. I will make one more attempt and then I will simply wait for the answers to the myriad of questions that you have all utterly failed to address. You have done what is often done by those who cannot defend what they believe. YOU CHANGE THE SUBJECT in hopes that people will not see, or forget that you have not dealt with what came before.

Nevertheless,

The entirety of the Holy Bible tells the story of Christ, Old and New Testaments. Lets begin with the beginning. This is going to take a while.

Genesis 1:1

“In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.” 

 
The first time God is mentioned in His Word, the word he chose to  use to describe Himself was the Hebrew word "Elohim". In the beginning Elohim. The word Elohim is only grammatically singular when referring to the Hebrew God and properly translated as God singular.  The im at the end of Elohim is normally masculine plural grammatically. There is a mystery here. Why would the one true God refer to Himself in a plural? 

The Holy Bible then records the days of creation e.g.

"And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.” Gen. 1:3

“And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8  And God called the firmament Heaven. .. “Gen. 1:7,8

“And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.” Gen. 1:9

“And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.” Gen. 1:11

And it goes on and on God creates the fish and the birds and all the land animals... Every time the Holy Bible records God creating something in the days of creation the word used is Elohim God proclaims this and He proclaims that. But then God creates man and God says:

“And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27  So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.” Gen 1:26,27

And God said Let us make man? In our image, after our likeness? Why is this singular God saying us and our? and why is it that He doesn’t do that until He creates Something in His own image? What makes man unique in all of creation? He is made in God’s image. What does this mean? And who was Elohim talking to when He said us and our?

He could not be talking to the angels, angels don’t have the power of creation, nor are they in the likeness of God. Let us examine man’s nature. Man has a body, man has a spirit and man has a soul. Three separate components that make up a singular person, this makes us unique in all of creation.

“And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” I Thessalonians 5:23

“ For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.” Hebrews 4:12

These scriptures illustrate the separateness of our nature, but no one can argue the fact  that though man has a triune nature, each person is a singular being not three beings. 

An angel is a spirit being, he has a spirit and a soul, but no physical body. He is not created in God’s image. All other animals have a physical body and a spirit, but they lack a soul, they too are not in God’s image. Only man is said to have been created by God with a triune nature, soul, spirit and physical body and only man is created in the image of God. So this must mean that God is triune in nature as well, or we would not be created in His image and God would be a liar.

Man’s nature must emulate God’s nature or we would not be in His likeness. God must be triune in nature. God the Father (the Soul of God), God the Holy Ghost (the Spirit of God) God the Son, who became flesh and dwelt among us for the sole purpose of redeeming us to Him. (the body of God). All equally God existing as one, three persons one being. It IS a great mystery!

“For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.” Isaiah 55:9

To say that God’s nature is not triune, that He is only Spirit, would mean that man is not made in His image, as God Himself, describes man as a triune being, spirit, soul and body, all three distinct from each other, yet one. Logically God’s nature MUST also be. Or you contradict God. If your God is not triune, he cannot be the God of Abraham.

We find this prophetic scripture recorded by King David in Pslams 110:

“The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. 2  The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies. 3  Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth. 4  The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek. 5  The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath. 6  He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries. 7  He shall drink of the brook in the way: therefore shall he lift up the head.”

“The LORD said unto my Lord”?  The first word translated LORD in this passage is (the) self-Existent or Eternal; Jehovah. The second word Lord, Adon means sovereign, controller, master. It is only capitalized in the Holy Bible when it is directly speaking of God. Everywhere else adon is used in the Holy Bible to refer to a human king or ruler, it is always lower case lord. You will notice that Lord is always capitalized in this passage.

You should also note that King David calls the second Lord “my Lord” He is in this passage recognizing the sovereign nature of this second Lord, King David is establishing that he is beneath this Lord. This passage is saying God said to my God. Again, who is God talking to. In all of scripture only One is promised to sit at the right hand of the Father.
This is the reason that King David is now in Paradise, he recognized who his Lord was even before he was born on earth. His looking towards the coming King was counted as righteousness as did Abraham before him.

“What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2  For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3  For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4  Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5  But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6  Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7  Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8  Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. 9  Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. “ Romans 4:1-9

It says here that Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness. What did Abraham believe? But don’t forget Psalms 110, we will come back to it shortly.

And it came to pass after these things that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am. 2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of. Genesis 22:1,2 

And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it upon Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together. And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering? And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together. And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood. And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son. And the angel of the Lord called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou anything unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me. And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.v 6-13 

Abraham had faith; he knew that God had promised him that through Isaac he would be the father of a great nation.   So, since God is not a man that He should lie, Abraham had faith that even if he slew his son, God would restore him. I hate to think what the fate of man would have been if Abraham had refused and failed the test. 

Abraham tells his son that God would provide a lamb for a burnt offering, and He did. It was Abraham's faith in that coming future Lamb that saved him. This was a fore shadowing of the perfect sacrifice offered by God on our behalf. As Abraham was willing, God did. Jesus Christ is the perfect Lamb! God did exactly what he expected of Abraham to do with his son.

Now back to Psalms 110 verse 4! 

“ The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.”

Here God swears that this coming Lord who He will sit at His right hand will be a priest after the order of Melchizedek. Well who the heck is Melchizedek and why will the coming Lord also be a priest after the order of Melchizedek? We have to go back to the book of Genesis to find out.

After Abram (Abraham) defeats king Chedorlaomer we read this:

“And the king of Sodom went out to meet him after his return from the slaughter of Chedorlaomer, and of the kings that were with him, at the valley of Shaveh, which is the king's dale. 18  And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God. 19  And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth: 20  And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.” Genesis 14:17-20

Abraham is called the “friend of God” yet Abraham voluntarily pays tithes to this priest king named Melchezedek who is identified as the king of Salem; (Salem means peace) this same Salem is what we call Jerusalem today. Only one other Person has the title King of Peace! Anyway, we do not hear of this Melchizedek again until the prophetic Psalm of David where God says the second Lord, (Adon) sits at His right hand and will be a priest FOREVER after the order of Melchizedek. After this, Melchizedek is not mentioned again until the New testament in the Book of Hebrews over a thousand years later, where we find in:

Hebrews 7

“1  For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him; 2  To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace; 3  Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually. 4  Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils. 5  And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham: 6  But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises. 7  And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better. 

Here God explains that the Levitical priesthood, Aaron’s priesthood is inferior to the Melchizedek priesthood which predates it. Levi was a descendant of Abraham and Abraham paid tithes to the greater Melchizedek who is not Abraham’s descendant but rather his better in God’s own eyes.

8  And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth. 9  And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham. 10  For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him. 11  If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? 

If man could be cleansed (receive salvation) through the sacrifice of animals good works and merely keeping the law, why would God have made another priesthood that predates Aaron’s

12  For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. 13  For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar. 14  For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood. 

According to the law, one could only be a priest if he is a Levite like Aaron and his brother Moses. Yet Jesus Christ is a descendant of David whom God promised the Messiah would spring from his family line. David was of the tribe of Judah and therefore eliminated from the Levitical priesthood. Yet in order for Christ to not only be the sacrifice that removes sin, He as God offering Himself, also had to be the priest making the sacrifice.

15  And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest, 16  Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life. 17  For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. 18  For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. 19  For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God. 

The Melchizedek priesthood supersedes the Levitical priesthood because it predates it and is unlike the Levitical priesthood, an everlasting priesthood.

20  And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest: 21  (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:) 22  By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. 23  And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death: 24  But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. 25  Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. 

Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of the promised sacrifice that He, Himself provided as God foreshadowed with Abraham and Isaac. God’s sacrifice, unlike the sacrifices of carnal man, can save to the utmost.

26  For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; 27  Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. 28  For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

Here God confirms the superiority of Christ when he says the law’s priests are picked by men, But the Melchizedek priest is picked by God and is spotless because God is spotless, because God is the only spotless being in the universe. The Levitical priest first has to make an offering to cover his own sin before he can make an offering for the people. God has no sin of His own to atone for so only He can remove sin completely. And because God is Holy, those who join him must be completely clean and no man can atone for his own sins because no man can be completely clean outside of the cleansing power of God’s blood atonement through His sinless Son, the only completely clean Lamb of God.
There is no contradiction between Old and New Testaments, just one long testimony of God’s love for man through Jesus Christ. In the beginning God said “let us make man in our Image”:

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2  The same was in the beginning with God. 3  All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4  In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5  And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. John 1:1-4

The Lord Jesus Christ is the living Word. He is the way the truth and the life! He is the Light of men he shines in the darkness and all those who deny He is Who He says He is, are the darkness that fails to comprehend.

Be light my friends, God is calling you to the truth! Feel that pricking at your heart? Satan wants you to stay in the dark. Heed the voice of the Lord, come out of the darkness. Hear the voice of the Good Shepherd who is your Creator.

Again, will you be a sheep on the Lord’s right hand side or a Goat on His left. I pray in the Name above all Names that you are sheep! Amen!

I may have to end the discussion here if the Muslims do not become more substantive, I have shared the Gospel message!
 
Aleem you have failed miserably in your challenge and have NO answer thats why now you are copying entire pages and pasting them here. may GOD show you the right path and give you time to repent your sins. ameen

Hassan Nurullah I wrote every word of what I posted myself Aleem as guided by the Holy Ghost! You say that I have failed, yet not one of you has addressed anything that i have said beyond simple ridicule and shallow unattributed opinions. If your Qur'an ga...insays the Holy Bible, it is your responsibility to prove that the Qur'an supersedes the Holy Bible, beyond you or it simply saying it does. It came much later. You Aleem are baring false witness, accusing me of something that is untrue, it is you who should be asking for the Lord's forgiveness.

If this is the tone I can expect this discussion to continue under, I will take my leave. And I would have to express surprise that Dr. Ali would allow such naked belligerence and ill will.

Salaam!

I think that about does it!

Aleem  there is no need of such over reacting, now atleast you have announced your challenge and thats all i wanted to know. you could say simply that you need a proof that how Quran is better than bible.

Arshad @Hassan you quoted Genesis without noticing the following mistakes in the SO CALLED WORD OF GOD.Point No.1- Bible says in Genesis Ch. No. 1 Verses No. 3 and 5,…‘Light was created on the first day.’ Genesis, Ch., 1 Verses, 14 to 19… ‘The ca...use of light - stars and the sun, etc. was created on the fourth day’. How can the cause of light be created on the 4th day - later than the light which came into existence on the first day? - It is unscientific.

Point No.2 - Further, the, Bible says Genesis, Ch. 1, Verses 9 to 13… ‘Earth was created on the 3rd day. How can you have a night and day without the earth ? The day depends upon the rotation of the Earth Without the earth created, how can you have a night and day?

Point No..3 - Genesis, Ch. No. 1 Verses 9 to 13 says… ‘Earth was created on the third day.’ Genesis Ch. No. 1 Verses 14 to 19 says…‘The Sun and the Moon were created on the fourth day.’ Today science tells us… ‘Earth is part of the parent body… the sun.’ It cannot come into existence before the sun – It is unscientific.

Point No. 4 - The Bible says in Genesis, Ch. No.1, Verse No. 11 to 13…‘The vegetation, the herbs the shrubs, the trees - they were created on the 3rd day And the Sun, Genesis, Ch. No. 1, Verses. 14 to 19, was created on the 4th day. How can the vegetation come into existence without sunlight, and how can they survive without sunlight ?

Point No.5 - The Bible says in Genesis, Ch. 1, Verses No.16, that…‘God created two lights the greater light, the Sun to rule the day, and the lesser light the Moon, to rule the night. The actual translation, if you go to the Hebrew text, it is ‘lamps’…‘Lamps having lights of its own.’ And that you will come to know better, if you read both the Verses – Genesis, Ch. No.1, Verse. 16, as well as 17. Verse No.17 says…‘And Almighty God placed them in the firmament, to give light to the earth… To give light to the earth.’ Indicating, that Sun and the Moon has its own light - which is in contradiction with established scientific knowledge that we have.Can word of God have so many mistakes just in one chapter??

Aleem  the first part of your answer is that is THE CURRENT bible authentic? if its authentic then we move forward and if not then the discussion is dead here.

The Quran says: Say (O Muslims), 'We believe in God, and what has been revealed to thee..., and what was revealed to Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes, and what was given to Moses, and Jesus, and the prophets from their Lord,- we will make no distinction between any of them,- and we are unto Him resigned. 3:84
Please Re-read it, and another similar verse of the Quran I quote below:
The Quran says: We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Messengers after him: we sent inspiration to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms. 4:163
They list names of the recipients of revelation from God, prior to the last prophet, SAW.
Do you see the names of Mark, Mathew, Luke, John or Paul? They are the authors of most of the books of the New Testament in the bible. Are they not?
The New Testament is the words of Mark, Mathew, Luke, John and Paul, and not the words of Jesus.
Hundreds of gospels were in circulation in the first century AD. Some of them are still around and can be read online: the gospel of James, the gospel of Thomas and the gospel of Barnabas. Other gospels were by Peter, Mary Magdeline, and Mary’s mother.
Among the gospels that have not survived might have been the gospel of Jesus.
Muslims are commanded to believe in what was given to Jesus. What did the Christians do to that which was given to the prophet of God, Jesus? None of the books in the New Testament is written by Jesus? The bible says Jesus could write. John 8:8, Luke 4,16

Aleem  the first part of your answer is that is THE CURRENT bible authentic? if its authentic then we move forward and if not then the discussion is dead here.

The Quran says: Say (O Muslims), 'We believe in God, and what has been revealed to thee..., and what was revealed to Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes, and what was given to Moses, and Jesus, and the prophets from their Lord,- we will make no distinction between any of them,- and we are unto Him resigned. 3:84
Please Re-read it, and another similar verse of the Quran I quote below:
The Quran says: We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Messengers after him: we sent inspiration to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms. 4:163
They list names of the recipients of revelation from God, prior to the last prophet, SAW.
Do you see the names of Mark, Mathew, Luke, John or Paul? They are the authors of most of the books of the New Testament in the bible. Are they not?
The New Testament is the words of Mark, Mathew, Luke, John and Paul, and not the words of Jesus.
Hundreds of gospels were in circulation in the first century AD. Some of them are still around and can be read online: the gospel of James, the gospel of Thomas and the gospel of Barnabas. Other gospels were by Peter, Mary Magdeline, and Mary’s mother.
Among the gospels that have not survived might have been the gospel of Jesus.
Muslims are commanded to believe in what was given to Jesus. What did the Christians do to that which was given to the prophet of God, Jesus? None of the books in the New Testament is written by Jesus? The bible says Jesus could write. John 8:8, Luke 4,16

Hassan Nurullah God created all things mature and already operating, the plants did not have to grow. If God says that he created light before the sun and moon, He is God. God is light. he can surely manifest it without the sun, moon and stars. We see this again in the book of Revelation after God restores the earth to it's perfect form, in the description of New Jerusalem:

"And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass. 22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. 24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. 25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life." Rev. 21:21-27

Your very questions limit God to something that only man can comprehend. God is above you! If He made the sun after the plants He can do that. Modern science also says that you are descended from apes--do you believe that as well Arshad? The God of the Holy bible does not nor does Allah in your own Qur'an.

"Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. 20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain. 21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours;" I Corinthians 3:18-21

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things." Romans 1:18-23

Your faith is indeed weak if you would believe the science of limited fallen men to what God says.

Aleem in the above answers you have talked about Quran, Quran was memorized by heart by suhaba and the memory of arabs can be measured by this fact that they memorized a long long list of their forefathers. and even togay we have thousands and thousands of huffaz who memorize it by heart without a single error. DO U HAVE A SINGLE PERSON SINCE THE TIME OF JESUS TILL TODAY WHO MEMORIZED THE BIBLE?

  

Arshad ‎:-)))@Hassan what else i can do on your reply.

Aleem and dont forget that your ancestors have been defeated by ahamdis and and got a miserable death and so are you destined to be, if you dont repent. see the proof below. THIS IS HISTORY AND NO BODY CAN CHANGE IT!!!

"The Qadian man predicted t...hat if Dowie accepted the challenge, 'he shall leave the world before my eyes with great sorrow and torment'. If Dowie declined, the Mirza said, 'the end would only be deferred; death awaited him just the same, and calamity will soon overtake Zion.
This was the Grand Prophecy: Zion should fall and Dowie die before Ahmad. It appeared to be a risky step for the Promised Messiah to defy the restored Elijah to an endurance test, for the challenger was by 15 years the older man of the two, and odds, in a land of plagues and religious fanatics were against him, as a survivor. But he won out". (The "Truth Seeker" June 15, 1907)

"Dowie died with his friends fallen away from him and his fortune dwindled. He suffered from paralysis and insanity. He died a miserable death, with Zion City torn and frayed by internal dissensions. Mirza comes forward frankly and states that he had won his challenge". (The "Boston Herald", June 23, 1907)

The American papers commented on this great event. The "Dunville Gazette" pointed out its accuracy:
"Ahmad and his adherents may be pardoned for taking some credit for the accuracy with which the prophecy was fulfilled a few months ago". (The Dunville Gazette, June 7, 1907)

Hassan Nurullah I have shown enough to illustrate the harmony of the Old and New testaments my friends, it is for you to respond to the truth or not, as for the apocryphal books of the Bible, there are reasons they are not included in the cannon of scripture. Do you disregard Isiaih, Jeremiah, Nahum, Habakuk, Daniel, Joel... The Quran only mentions 25 prophets there are far more in the Old Testament alone LOL. So do you then also disregard all of the other Biblical Prophets that have Books in the Holy Bible named after them? Your arguments are sounding more and more shallow, more and more foolish.

Here is another challenge for you and it is with this challenge I take my leave and hope that God illuminates the truth for you all.

There are 66 Books in the cannon of scripture from Genesis to Revelation. There are 39 Old Testament books that deal primarily with Jews living under the Law beginning with Genesis ending with the book of Malachi.

There are 27 books of the New Testament from Matthew to Revelation.

There are 66 chapters of the book of the prophet Isaiah. The first 39 chapters deal with the Jews under the law. The last 27 chapters deal with the coming Messiah. Chapter 40 begins:

1 Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God. 2 Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD'S hand double for all her sins. 3 ¶The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

John the Baptist, by all accounts was the prophetic voice calling in the wilderness foretold in Isaiah and the One he was making a way for was the Lord Jesus Christ.

"And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou? 20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ. 21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No. 22 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself? 23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias. John 1:19-23

My challenge is, read the book of Isaiah, and if you can not see that Christ is the one that is spoken of from the beginning of the Bible to the end? If you fail to see the symmetry of God's Holy Word? You are well and truly lost and may God have mercy on your soul.

Salaam

P.S.

The Dunville Gazette is your authority LOL! Thank you my friends for an interesting exchange. I hope that many read this exchange and that the truth of God stands revealed to the lost! In the magnificent name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Amen, Amen and Amen!

That's where I get off! 

Lovely Gift Allah k sher africa k janglon me dhartey hen to in shetan sift logon k dil dehel jatey hen. Apni billon me pre thr thr kamptey hen. AHMADIYYAT ZINDABAD!! 

Please! Please! Mr hassan before taking leave answer the single question i asked. I answerd many of yours but u havnt answerd my single question it is not fair.
my question was did jesus ascend to heaven physically or spiritually? And if it... was physical what was the mode of transport? And if it was spiritual then will he return with a new body or....

Hassan Nurullah @Lovely Gift

He is God!

"And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnes...ses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judæa, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. 9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." Acts 1:7-11

Christ will return in the glorified uncorrupted physical body that He now has, A body the likes of which Christ promises all believers will one day have as well.

"The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord." I Corinthians 15:47-58

May God quicken His majestic Word!

Arshad @Hassan you are wonderful,please answer my questions as well.I want to learn from you.1)Are you Waiting for the "Son of GOD" or the "Son of MAN" ??

2) WILL HE BE THE YESHUA son Mary or His likness (beacuse Elias was also supposed to come bu...t "stayed there in the Skies" ?
3) Will Jesus physically DESCEND from above space or what ??

Is it all a physical event like the astronaut coming from the upper space or is it a spiritual event like the coming of Elias (Which Jesus Explained away in the likeness of John the baptist)??

4) What guarantee that in his second coming he has an improved performance and will NOT GET CRUCIFIED AGAIN (proofs needed not merebelief)

Hassan Nurullah @Arshad, every one of your questions has already been answered in my answers above. Your last question in particular shows the unregenerate state you now find yourself in. Christ came with the express purpose of being crucified. God came t...o die for YOU! If Christ were not crucified he would have failed and we would all be without hope. As I said before, I have stated all that is necessary for anyone who has read what I wrote to be saved.

If you reject the truth, when you stand before the Judgment seat of Christ and you are rejected, if you truly read what i wrote, you will have no excuse. BE WARNED, GOD IN HIS WORD, WHICH I HAVE QUOTED HERE, HAS SPOKEN! I never gave you once my own opinion or the wisdom of fallen men. Now it is up to you to respond or not. God came and shed His blood for YOU, take it or leave it!

Your spirit man, that part of you that is spirit knows the truth of what I bear witness of here. but your flesh and your soul rebel, your pitiful body and your limited mind try to limit God. So that the god you worship is made in YOUR image according to YOUR feeble understanding. Good luck with that. Now I am truly done with this thread.

Salaam!

OK, Now I really am done with this thread! Amen, Amen and Amen!

Lovely Gift Dear mr Hassan, Please take this last message before we part, The second coming of jesus(as) that u r waiting for and all religions await to date, has already been accomplished. The promised masiah has apeared in Quadian! Your JESUS HAS COME already. He proclaimed in 1889 and to date we r blessed with his fifth succesor who is currently resided in london.


Hassan Nurullah This is the reason that Islam exists in the first place, as I said before , if Muhammad had known scripture, when this entity calling himself Gabriel came to him with his false doctrines, Muhammad would have rejected him.

It is the same for ...you Lovely Gift, you are deceived because you do not know what scripture says. The Lord gives this warning about things in the last days (which we are surely now in):

"Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not." Matthew 24:23-26

Pay close attention to what Jesus says here.

"27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. 29 ¶Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." Matthew 24:27-31

When Christ returns, everyone in the whole world will know it and see it and hear it. And those who have believed on Him will be gathered together with Him. Woe unto those who are not believers in Christ on that day. He is coming in judgment with the sword. Those who have rejected truth, yet in their sin and iniquity, in there willful wickedness, who like you all have heard the Gospel and turned your eyes from Him, Those who have believed a lie, will be thrown into the wine press of His wrath:

"And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. 17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six" hundred furlongs. Revelation 14:14-20

When Jesus came the first time it was to suffer for our sakes. When Jesus Christ returns it will be as judge, conqueror, and King for those who had contempt for the unmerited gift of salvation that He paid for with his blood. He came in love the first time, he comes with vengeance and wrath the second.

There is still time, repent, pray and ask God for the truth. Again God is reaching out to you RIGHT NOW as you read this, God is telling you THE TRUTH! I can tell that you want the truth, and I can also tell you that GOD wants you more than you want Him.

But your desire to place God in a box that you in your flesh can understand causes you to deny the truth. You pray like the heathens do with vain repetition. You count your prayers on silly beads like the Buddhists, Catholics and Sikhs when God forbids such activity. Jesus says:

"And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. 7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him. " Matthew 6:5-8

The God of the Holy Bible says you must worship him in spirit and in truth. Not with postures, rugs, beads and repeated prayers. he seeks for you to speak from your heart.

It is not too late! Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you and your household will be saved!

 

This thing may never end!